Transcript for The Prime Experience: The Wheel of Time FYC panel held on May 16, 2022. The panel followed a screening of season 1 episode 6 The Flame of Tar Valon.
The panelists include:
- Rafe Judkins (Showrunner/Executive Producer)
- Rosamund Pike (Moiraine Damodred)
- Daniel Henney (Lan Mandragoran)
- Zoë Robins (Nynaeve al'Meara)
- Madeleine Madden (Egwene al'Vere)
- Josha Stradowski (Rand al'Thor)
- Marcus Rutherford (Perrin Aybara)
- Moderated by Patrick Gomez (Entertainment Weekly)
Panel transcript[]
Patrick: Hello, hello. My name is Patrick Gomez. I'm editor of Entertainment Weekly but you don't care who I am. You're here to see these other people that I'm about to introduce. Please welcome the showrunner of Wheel of Time Rafe Judkins, as well as the cast: Rosamund Pike, Daniel Henney, Josha Stradowski, Marcus Rutherford, Zoë Robbins, Madeleine Madden. And as I mentioned, Rafe. Thank you. Thank you all so much. Have a seat. First of all, congratulations, because I know you were able to have a London premiere but COVID, as it impacted everything, impacted being able to truly celebrate this season. So it must be very special to be here and see all these people so excited to have watched an episode.
Daniel: It's very surreal to be in a room with this many people, but it's wonderful. Yeah, it's been a long time coming, that's for sure.
How The Wheel of Time came into their lives[]
Patrick: I want to start at the beginning and kind of go down the line and hear from each of you how Wheel of Time came into your life. How did you become a part of the show? Why was it something that you wanted to be a part of? And I'm gonna start off with the man that I think it makes the most sense to start off with: Rafe.
Rafe: Wheel of Time came into my life actually through my mother. When I was younger, I grew up gay and Mormon, which is a complicated combination. And so as she was sort of grappling with this idea, she brought this book and left it outside my door and said, "I thought you might like this." And it was Wheel of Time and we were really able to connect. It is a fantasy series that was for a lot of people that fantasy series hadn't been for before. Women could find themselves in it, like my mother. I could find myself in it as a gay person. It was a fantasy series that was different and attracted a different group of people than what had come before. So I've always had a very emotional connection to the series and it's kind of amazing to see it brought to life with this unbelievable cast.
Patrick: And before we get to the cast, walk us through it becoming something that was presented on Amazon. How did that stage of your journey with this IP come?
Rafe: It has always been something that I told my agent, I was like, "There is a book series called The Wheel of Time and it will be a very important television show." And everyone would be like, "Oh no, you're working on these others things, you don't worry about that." And I was like, "It will, it will, it will." And I eventually saw that Sony got the rights and went to them and said, "This is what I see as the TV series. This is what it could be." And Amazon really believed in us and what this could mean, not just for one season of television, but to tell this massive story that really is one of the pillars of fantasy literature and actually bring it to screen the way it needs to be done. So they have been hugely helpful in really delivering this.
Patrick: Those at the end line, have much time, prepare your same as I would love to go down the line in hear from each of you how this project came into into your life.
Rosamund: For me I was really... I played some real characters, real people in recent years, which takes its toll in a different way. And I was really looking for a -- and I've also played some fictional characters who've all been less than pleasant I would say. And I was really looking for an escape from both those, both the complex lives of real strong complicated women and also the sort of nasty women, and what better than a sorceress who sort of seems to take on a role that I'd only ever seen portrait by men. She seemed a bit like Gandalf to me, which is about as cool as it gets. So I was in! Yes. But it's the might of this man's imagination, Robert Jordan, that's so appealing. And I feel that what struck me about fantasy which I just didn't know and didn't expect was you have this extraordinary canvas to explore interpersonal relationships, which is what interests me fundamentally as an actor. Except that it's heightened by the fact that it's fantasy not reduced by the fact that it's fantasy. I think there's this preconception that fantasy is somehow sort of lighter weight emotionally than the really hard hitting stuff. And I realized that is just not the case, it's really not the case. And because of what the stakes are, all the stuff that we love in drama -- relationships, love, loyalty, purpose, courage -- all those things, everything is heightened by it being fantasy. So that's what was new to me and a discovery and exciting.
Daniel: For me, I was, tell my story, I was doing a show in the States for like six years. And it was a procedural, a crime show, and we finished that I was looking for something different outside the box, and you can't get much more different than this. So I was very interested in the character of Lan is so special and someone that I'd wanted to play since I was very young. A character like this being Asian American, I sort of thought, this might not ever happened to play someone like Lan Mandragoran. So it all came together and then I got on a couple phone calls from Rosamund. And when they want you in the show, you don't say no, that's for sure. It's been the most amazing experience my life so far. So yeah, that's the simple, simple story.
Zoë: Hello. My audition came through in an email. I'm from New Zealand and just the way that the world works now digitally, I never thought I'd have an experience or an opportunity like this 10 years ago. I've never had an opportunity to play a character this nuanced, this real, and angry. And she wears her heart on her sleeve and then she's also so insecure. So this character, I've never read a character that's so fleshed out and she terrified me when I first auditioned because I see myself in her a lot. It's meant the world to me to be a part of something this epic. And these characters and this series means a lot to a lot of people and the stories that we've heard. It's a dream come true, and playing Nynaeve has been has been an absolute gift. So forever forever thankful to Rafe and the team.
Madeleine: Similarly to Zoë, mine came through email. And I flew out to London where I met Josha and Marcus and we had a really amazing chemistry read which I think even just from that moment, I knew that Rafe and the other writers and producers and casting agent really cared about creating a good energy and making sure that there was good chemistry between us because they knew what an undertaking this was and how strong the characters' bonds needed to be. And in turn I guess we had to get along. And I just remember kind of thinking, this could be something that would change my life majorly, like professionally but also it's had much more of an impact, I think, personally. Just growing with these people that I consider my family which I think has been the most wonderful takeaway from this. Like what Daniel said, I think playing a character like this is something that's always been a dream of mine as being a first nations woman from Australia. And I've always loved the fantasy genre because I think anything is possible in this kind of world and there's no limits to who you can be or what you can do. And that's something that I've always sort of strived for, and so it's wonderful to play a character that feels and thinks similar to that. So, yeah, it's been mental, three and a half years and I'm also eternally grateful to Rafe as well.
Josha: Yeah, same way, I got a phone call from my agent and it was The Wheel of Time and the character's name was Red Han. I auditioned for Red Han in The Wheel of Time. I looked it up, I couldn't find it. But it seemed very important. And then we auditioned. We did the chemistry read and then I got the call that I got to play the character and it wasn't Red Han, it was actually Rand. And then I looked it up and it seemed like a really important character. I did some research and it seemed like Rand's arc was one of the most incredible arcs that a character can well, in fantasy basically. And Rosamund Pike was in the project, so I wasn't sure if I should do it. But then I talked to Rafe and decided to do it. So yeah.
Marcus: Yes, similarly I was always in London at the time and my agent was like, "There's this big fantasy series that's coming out you should audition for." And the role was for Peter, and similarly I googled and found nothing. And I was like, "It doesn't sound like a good character." But yeah, we did a few chemistry reads with a few people, and I slowly start to realize that this character was sort of like this big gentle giant who kind of has this troubled conquest with violence and I just, I'd never seen that in fantasy before. I'd always seen sort of like, warrior type leaders who are very quick to pick up weapons and be those leaders. I'd never seen a nuanced character like that for like a big dude. So I thought that was really interesting. And then yeah, as the sort of chemistry reads went on, we slowly start to find out more and more. And it was like the series that sold 90 million copies, so you're like, "oh shit."
Josha: Not enough.
Marcus: Yeah. And then Rosamund Pike's attached and all this kind of stuff. So it became incredibly exciting and the scale of it suddenly dawned on me. And yes this experience has been life-changing, man. And then we just finished season 2 and it's been incredible.
Patrick: And congratulations for getting through that journey as well. I'd love to hear from you, Rafe, about adaptive- I mean, the series is beloved, it's beloved both by you, but it's beloved by millions and millions of readers, and it's also quite lengthy. So, what was the process like of deciding what to keep, what to cut, and what to change?
Rafe: It's almost an impossible and daunting task looking at those 14 books and figuring out how to make it into eight episodes of television. And so what I really always focused on was, what is unique about these books? What is different, what do people love about the series as a whole? And I think this episode is a good example because it's not entirely from the books. It's about these women, the Aes Sedai, who are incredibly essential to the series Wheel of Time, but are not necessarily in the first book. And so we really wanted to find a way to put them into the show to give people the things that you love most about the whole series of Wheel of Time. And to forefront the characters, to understand this woman Moiraine sooner than you might otherwise, to understand her relationship with this woman Siuan, who's almost like a pope figure in our world. And the interesting thing is, the forbidden nature of their relationship has nothing to do with that they're two women, it has to do with the power dynamic of the world. And I think that's something we wanted to highlight in the show in the first season, is what are the things that make Wheel of Time different? What makes it special? And to show these characters. You haven't had a badass lesbian sorceress at the heart of a show before. And now we do and I think that that's one thing I was trying to focus on was just these characters. Who are they? What do they mean? How can we track their emotional journeys? Because the journeys they go on across the entire series are so huge and we have actors who can achieve those journeys. And that's such a gift as a writer and creator.
Patrick: That deserves applause.
Research the source material[]
Patrick: For the actors, I know you were mentioning you tried to do a little research before auditions. But how much did you go to the original source material and how much did you rely solely on the scripts? Were any of you militant in doing one of the other?
Josha: I think we all had different approaches. But for Rand, I just knew I had to read the books. So I started reading and...
Patrick: Are you still reading now?
Josha: I'm still reading, but last book now, book 14. So almost there.
Rafe: He's been reading at a very fast paced for years and is just getting to the end.
Madeleine: I remember we were sitting in a car once and I was saying to Josha like, "This is taking me a minute because I'm like a slow reader and my concentration," and all this kind of stuff. And you were really empathetically listening and you're like, "Yeah, no, I get it. English is my second language, I'm reading it in English and I'm dyslexic, so I understand it's difficult." I was like, "Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah, same, exactly the same, yeah." So you've been doing amazing.
Josha: Well it's really helpful, all the material. I can't imagine how difficult it is for Rafe to make it into a show because it's so rich, and it's so many details, so many different cultures, people, beliefs. I think you did a great job. So far, so good.
Patrick: Did any of you decide not to read the books at all? Or did all of you at least read some of it?
Daniel: I think we're all very stages of the books, right now. We've all decided to read the books. We're at various stages.
Rosamund: Robert Jordan, he does go inside all the characters' headers, they're very multiple-perspective books, which is very helpful for all actors. He has these sort of passages where each chapter is from somebody's point of view and it goes right inside the mind and he's very empathetic with both the male and the female characters. So he has a pretty prodigious imagination.
Rafe: Yeah, one of the things that sort of changed fantasy literature with this series was the multiple perspectives. And we've really tried to find a way to adapt that in the show, where you do get to follow these characters and see their emotional journeys that they're on that. They have an episode that's sort of centered around them, and it's almost like you're in their point of view even though you can't hear their internal monologue. Hopefully in that episode, you started to put together Moiraine's internal monologue and what was happening for her as if it was a POV chapter. Because that was one of the big things that changed in fantasy. And the number of women that have POV chapters in the books, the evenness with which he approached men and women, I think created an interesting fan base for this book series and this show. It's not one or the other, it's about 50/50 in the division of chapters. That was really different in the 90s when these came out.
Elements that unlocked the character[]
Patrick: Were their elements in the books, passages in the books that you read, or lines in the scripts, or a particular piece of wardrobe or prop that really unlocked the characters for you? Was there a moment that you said, "Oh I feel like I know who this person is now," because of this element in the production?
Daniel: For Lan, he has a hadori he wears on his head. It's something that Malkier boys get when they get when they turned 16 and is a passage to manhood. I mean, a lot of people would think it's the sword for me, but I really love that moment when we're getting ready in the mornings, everything's on, the wig is on, everything's on, finally the hadori goes on last. And we find a way to use it functionally, so it actually ties into his top knots. So it's actually a functional piece. And I kind of geek out as an actor because in some fight scenes, you can see it whipping with my head and stuff, it's really cheesy. And actually, it's still on my head because we were just in Morocco and I have a tan line across my forehead. Which is a real cool conversational piece when you walk into a bar. But that for me, it just feels like he's complete when I have the hadori on. It's very special.
Patrick: Is there anything similar for any of the rest of you?
Madeleine: I think the braid holds so much significance for the women, especially from the Two Rivers. It's kind of like a universally known thing of how much weight this carries and symbolism of sisterhood and taking that with you wherever you go and that's something that we've definitely played. I don't want to speak for Zoe, but that's always mentioned, particularly on Twitter. "Tug the braid!" When we kind of hold that when we need strength. I think when I first put the the wig on and got the braid, I really felt -- I mean, I felt it because it was heavy. But like I definitely felt what a proud moment this was for Egwene and how this was like a new chapter of her life.
CGI and practical sets[]
Patrick: Those are things that you could physically touch and see and experience. There's a lot in here that I'm assuming you we're not actually looking at as you were experiencing it as characters. Tell us a little bit about the challenges or the excitement that you had dealing with so much CGI and things that you knew were going to be put into the frame in post-production.
Rosamund: We have very little, I mean we have CGI, but the amazing thing about The Wheel of Time is how many of the sets are real and lived. There's very little that we have to create by imagination alone. So that Waygate, where we ended there, that was an unbelievably difficult days filming. A wind whipped up on that hill like you just would not believe, and actually blew us of course for a whole day and we had to revisit it. When I went up the step, I mean the waygate seemed like it might take off. And we've just used another way gate and this time there was a three and a half meter deep rig underneath the way gate to stop it flying away after the experience on that hill. But obviously the darkness beyond, that's all created by CGI. But I think on that bleak day, I think we could all imagine the darkness beyond quite readily.
Rafe: It's something we've sort of striven to do on the show is create real places for them to go and I think [in] fantasy there's so many moments where you can disconnect, where you go, Amyrlin Seat, Oath Rod, like I don't know what this is.
Rosamund: I mean, the Oath Rod, sorry, can I just tell you about that scene with the Oath Rod that you've just watched? There is very little in television more difficult than two women, having to make a dignified important scene with a large long, phallic object. It's an incredibly emotional moment. It contains beauty, elegance, depth, and it's all across this engraved... dildo, effectively. I've said it, I said it.
Rafe: We had some unusable angles.
Rosamund: We found that the only way you could hold it was [demonstrates presenting the Oath Rod with both hands]. Because as soon as you went [demonstrates holding it with one hand] Like this, it became another scene entirely. So just, please, some empathy for the difficulty of playing that scene. [to Rafe] Sorry, you did mention it.
Rafe: That was true acting. You know, we try to create, we try to make it as real as possible so that these guys are looking at real stuff with real actors around them. Even if it's a real double-ended dildo.
Rosamund: The whole city of Tar Valon that you see very briefly in this episode, that was all constructed. There is no CGI. It's a city that our production designer has built on the backlog of the studio in Prague. There's an amazing shot of Josha and Barney in the episode before coming through the town, and it's just a steady cam shot, and it's just takes in the extent of the world. And it really is, we were very, very lucky with what you give us.
Rafe: There's such a push now in these kind of shows that just do everything with the effects, they're like, couldn't be on the volume like that. We could just not have anything. And I think it helps the authenticity to have real things and real people. You stepped into that room even when I was on set the room at the beginning, that circular room the hall of the tower. And it's Rosamund Pike and Sophie Okonedo, Kate Fleetwood, it's these incredible women, and even the extras who are all sitting in those seats and had been prepared for this. And you felt something emotional when you go in there, of the power of that and the power of these women and these actresses and all being there and being able to be in one space like that I think added to that and helped you feel what it might have been like in this fantasy world to step into a room of some of the most powerful and interesting women in the world and feel overawed by them.
Patrick: Beautiful.
Physicality of channeling[]
Patrick: One of the things that we get to see you all do is channel, or at least some of you. Walk me through establishing what that physicality looked like. Did that evolve, did that change? Did you have group discussions? Did one person set it?
Zoë: It's different for each of us because the characters are all so different. We have this amazing movement coach Scarlett who's incredible. We all work with her. For me, it was very raw. I mean, we didn't do much choreography or we didn't really work that much together because every time Nynaeve channels at the moment, it's an explosion, at all comes from anger and her emotions. So to make it the most authentic it can possibly be, it can't be choreographed. So that was something that was really exciting. I could just kind of let loose and scream and cry and all the things that we don't often get to do is as women and on TV as well. So, I had a lot of fun, a lot of fun being angry. What's beautiful is watching all the other women work and I mean Rosamund and Maddie have very different styles of channeling, and I think you can see that too, and that makes them all very interesting.
Patrick: How did that develop you, Maddie?
Madeleine: Like Zoe said, it's different for every person, which I think is a really, it's such a spiritual show and the One Power means different things to people. For my character, she was told that she could listen to the wind, so she has this influence, so much of identity is tied to Nynaeve as being a mentor. And then she finds a new mentor Moiraine who she's fascinated with. And so a lot of her style of channeling is influenced by the women that have been really important to her in her life. And I think it's something that constantly changes as the characters grow and go through different experiences in life, it alters. It is like a dance and I think it's not just kind of putting your hands out and just like sending a weave that way, it's really something when you when you do it, you have to-- and this is something that Scarlett is so great at doing, and even when we watched you Rosamund do the big channeling that you did in episode one-- it's something that you connect with breath, and you do feel this kind of energy of course through your body. So when you do do it, you can almost feel it coming out of you, this sort of sensory overload. It's something that's quite incredible, you definitely have to warm up and warm down after you do it. I mean coming to the physio the other day like, "My back," it's like, "How did you hurt it?" I was like, "Morocco channeling. Don't ask," like, "How much time have you got?" type thing. It's amazing. It is, it's like a dance, and it's different for everyone.
Rosamund: It's personal and I think that's what is an interesting thing about The Wheel of Time because you get to see the cost. A lot of shows that have magic, it never explores what is the cost on the person doing the magic? With tremendous power, there is always a flip side, there is always a cost. And the One Power, the way Robert Jordan writes, it is incredibly seductive, it's delicious, it's sweet, it kind of fills your veins. It's an amazing feeling to channel, but it's dangerous, because if you don't learn to control it, it will control you. And some people are scared of it, they never want to touch it, they never want to. Nynaeve is very ambivalent about whether she wants to be a channeler or not. And it's such an interesting form of magic. It's so different from anything I've seen before and the fact that we all get to develop our style. And I think we all wanted to, of course there's going to be visual effects, but we wanted to create something that would count if there were none, and that you would believe it. And that's about a connection, a deep connection.
Other physicality[]
Patrick: Not just channeling, but with other skills or things that you're like, wow, this is really cool that I got to, I mean, you do incredible fight choreography. You learn to use different sorts of weapons, that sort of thing.
Rosamund: This episode doesn't show that. But I mean, these guys are unbelievable swordsmen now.
Daniel: I think myself, all of us, really learned a lot in terms of our respective weapons, right? I didn't know much with the-- Lan's sword is based on a katana sword. It's a two-handed sword, but it's pretty light. I've done some martial arts, but just being able to work with our amazing stunt team in the Czech Republic, we have an amazing sword master who's taught me everything I know now and how to move with it. I don't know, it just feels like a part of me now and I know that sounds cheesy. But it's been a really cool thing to sort of say you have that skill and to feel comfortable with that sword. So now, for example, if you watch the first episode, the big Winternight fight, that took me a month to learn, and there was 150 beats which basically means kills, and it was a very, very long scene. And we just got back from Morocco, we had another huge fight sequence and I was able to get that down in a week. And that's because I have the foundation now and what I've learned from being on the show, it's really incredible. And we all ride horses really well.
Patrick: Yeah, I was rewatching some episodes over the weekend and it's incredible the stuff that you guys do. Congratulations on that.
Season two[]
Patrick: In our final few minutes, I'm gonna, Rafe, ask this of you. I know you recently wrapped season two. What can you tease for us, those of us that are very excited but have not seen any of it yet? What's to come?
Rafe: I think season 1 has to do so much ground setting for the show and the world and the moving pieces of it. What's exciting about season two and what the writing team really set out to do at the beginning was to take each of these characters and see them on their own. Who are they when they're on their own? And so each of these guys has an episode that they are the center of and you're following just their journey. There could be other people amongst it, but most of them are not together for a lot of the season and they haven't seen each other for two years. They don't even know who the other people are anymore-- no. But they really, you get to explore and see who these characters are. And yes, there's big battles, and that's what people like about fantasy. But I think what translates so well about fantasy books to television is that you read them because you want to see what happens to the characters and you care about them. And that's the same reason that people come back to television. And so I love about season two that we get to see more of these characters, learn about who they are, what they want, and see them on their own journey and sort of keep taking you out into the world with that.
Patrick: Well, I can't wait for that. If this was your first experience with Wheel of Time, please make sure to check out all eight episodes of the first season available on Prime video, and we look forward to season two. Thank you all so much. Thank you all for being here.
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This transcript of a live event has been edited for clarity and readability. Filler words (such as "uh", "like", "you know", etc.) have been removed.