Transcript for the New York Comic Con panel held on Saturday, October 14, 2023 and the screening Q&A held on Sunday, October 15, 2023.
The panelists for The Wheel of Time at New York Comic Con 2023 included:
- Marigo Kehoe, executive producer
- Andy Scrase, visual effects supervisor
- Brian Shows, VFX producer
- Rafe Judkins, showrunner
- Moderated by Damian Holbrook
Attendees for the Q&A at the episode screening:
- Rafe Judkins, showrunner
- Moderated by Sean T. Collins
Panel transcript[]
Damian: All right, so next we are leaving the world of animation and we are going into the world of high fantasy. I am so excited to introduce this panel for Wheel of Time, which, mother of god, how good was the last season? Honestly! How many of you were here for last year's panel? Okay, so remember the trailer we saw? Was that, I mean, I was waiting for all those moments, and then I blown away. Everything that we saw in that was so delivered. I am so excited to talk to these people. So obviously, Wheel of Time, it's based on the best-selling Robert Jordan series of books, which just ended its epic second season last week. And oh my god, I've watched it like four times. So joining us today will be the series executive producer Marigo Kehoe, visual effects supervisor Andy Scrase, and VFX producer Brian Shows. They are here to discuss what made this amazing fantasy come to life. So let's bring them out, let's get them some chairs.
Marigo Kehoe, Andy Scrase, and Brian Shows come out on stage, as stagehands bring chairs out for them and they sit.
Damian: All right, so first of all, before we go on, we've got-- we want to look at-- Let's look at what you did. Let's just look at what you've done. So let's roll that.
[A video is shown to the audience.]
Damian: You talked about-- so-- There's something with the show, it was so good. What was your biggest project this season? Like what was the thing that we were like, "okay we need to get this right"?
Andy: For me, my main aim was the channeling. Because it's such an important part of The Wheel of Time. It's its own unique magic system. And when I joined the show, I wanted to know how I could creatively improve things and make it more visually striking. And so, that's where kind of conversations came in about, introducing the colors because the colors are very prevalent in the books with regards which one represents which elements. And so I kind of researched that and looked at what I could draw upon from the real world, and that's photography or arts or science, to help develop the look of the channeling. And that's actually where I found a photographic technique called light painting and the design of the channeling is heavily based on that.
Damian: Brain, when you were looking at all of this stuff that needs to be coordinated, what is your office look like?
Brian: We have large teams of people in multiple countries. Yeah. Organizing, there's a lot of whiteboards, a lot of excel sheets, things that aren't very interesting. But we do have we have a great team of people who are on the ground in multiple places helping us.
Damian: And when you're looking at it though, do you see in your head what it could be?
Brian: Yeah. With with this team, we definitely work through that, and that's part of that collaboration process.
Damian: And when you were putting together your locations, because you went and filmed in locations where you then created fully original locations. where you guys kind of like, "Oh Morocco sounds like it's going to be a lot of sand"?
Marigo: Well, a lot of sand, and we did have dust storms and sandstorms and major wind. You know, I felt very sorry for the actors when they were having to-- we were wearing our masks on and stuff. And obviously in that environment, trying to get everything, because it's a huge visual effects crew as well out there with production design and SFX. It's a huge team effort when we're out there.
Damian: Which episode this season, would you say, had the most visual effects?
Andy: I think that's quite easy. It's the last one, last episode, yeah.
Damian: How many people worked on that episode?
Andy: Oh collectively, I don't know, but I would say it's in the hundreds somewhere.
Damian: Wow.
Andy: I would've thought we were talking about three or four hundred people, I think.
Damian: Okay, did either of you have a hand in the beach scene?
Brian points at Andy, and Marigo nods and looks at Andy.
Andy: The beach scene?
Damian: Yeah.
Andy: Yeah most definitely.
Damian: Holy crap, that was amazing. Also, I have to just say, it's something that I've been saying for a week or two now like: Heroes of the Horn. That moment was everything. When you guys are mapping these out, because these are great iconic moments, they're on the page, they're in the readers' heads. I have a friend who is a die hard fan of these books and her main concern was, "how are they going to do the channeling?" Because it is such a unique magic, and in the books it's almost rooted in almost like nature, it feels like. So when you were doing an overhaul, what went into that? Because that's [indecipherable].
Marigo: So [indecipherable], isn't it?
Andy: It is, yeah. That was actually one change to make magic look organic and natural, which is a rather large challenge in itself. But for me it was just about making it more striking, more tangible. I was very literal the way I approached it to make things feel very thread-like. And like I said, I looked at the light painting as a source of inspiration, but then there was an extra lay of texture I brought to it, and individuality to each element. Of the fire, you have these kind of bonfirey sparks that come off of it with it. With the earth channeling, you have dust come off of it. Water, you've got water droplets. And then with air channeling, this is very subtle ribs distortion effect goes around it as well.
Damian: What are the steps that you go through, once you're given basically you're marching orders? How do you guys, how do you two collaborate on that?
Andy: I take care of the creative side, and then Brian's there crunching the numbers and organizing things, keeping everything in ship-shape, making sure we hit our delivery dates, because obviously we do have a lot of shots to get through, and everyone's keen to see the season. So there's definitely a pressures on all fronts.
Damian: It looks so expensive, but every show has a budget. So Brian, are you the one that has to kind of say, "Well, if we want to do that in the finale, then we can't do that in episode 7."?
Brian: Precisely.
Damian: Because there's so many shows where they're like, "we saved our whole budget for the final episode." And I'm watching this final episode, but then all the previous episodes, I'm like, "What did they cut?" Like, where, it didn't feel like anything was shorted.
Marigo: We worked very closely with our post team, with our editors, and obviously, as we're going through, we do a process of, you know, we can only have, I don't know, ten shots in this particular sequence. And we literally go through it and make sure that we hit budget.
Damian: Oh my god, this is--
Marigo: And put the money on screen, by the way.
Damian: You had so many incredible locations, what is it like getting to kind of play amongst the the world as your backdrop? Like you get to go to Prague, you get to go to Italy, you get to go to Morocco, and say, "Okay, well you're all really nice and everything, but we're gonna build a tower on you."
Marigo: Which we did in the middle of Ouarzazate desert, yes we did. Lots of reasons for doing it actually because the location itself gave us the backdrop. So then you're cutting out visual effects shots, so there's all sorts of things that we weigh out when we're looking at where we're actually shooting.
Damian: Is it easier for you guys to do locations, to do visual effects for locations, versus something shot in studio?
Andy: I personally prefer it. I love having something in camera that we can work with and then we extend off of that. I think it's, you know, for me visual effects is at it's strongest when it's complementarying the other departments that exist, whether we're building off of a set or a location or something like this. That's when I think it's, as obviously visual effects is a filmmaking tool, that's when it's at its most powerful.
Damian: And as these characters, all seem to develop some sort of power or ability. Brian, do you then go and ask for a bigger budget? Because now suddenly you have to be able to give Mat more stuff, and Egwene more stuff...
Brian: We try to work with what we're, you know...
Damian: [laughs] All right. For all three of you, do you have a favorite scene from this season? Aside from the finale stuff, because that was just, I mean-- And also, you're doing a screening tomorrow, right?
Marigo: We are, yeah.
Damian: Yeah. On the big screen which is amazing. So if you guys can get there! This season, what was your like...?
Marigo: From a visual effects standpoint?
Damian: Yeah.
Marigo: Well for me, it's not the most obvious, but because we were developing the channeling for a very long time, is probably the novice kitchen scene. Because and I used to admire ['indecipherable] doing this all the time, which is Priyanka. But we did watch it over and over again to make sure that the channeling worked and it looked organic basically. Which, I think, the most amazing job, this team.
Damian: Right, because we had never seen what's remedial magic, you know? What about you?
Andy: For me, it's I think it's the scene with Egwene and the damane training grounds in episode 7. There's this kind of resistance shown by Egwene and this demonstration of power, essentially kind of flexing her muscles and shown the Seanchan exactly what she's capable of. And what I really like about it was the fact we able to tell a story in that particular moment with Egwene where she starts channeling in her Aes Sedai form and then just this transformation where she goes into her damane form, which is very kind of locked and rigid, very much like the rest of our demane have these channeling cages around them to represent how they're imprisoned themselves. So I think that is a little mini sequence I really love that, because of everything involved: the acting, the visual effects work, the location.
Damian: What about you?
Brian: I like Moiraine channeling on the beach too.
Damian: So great, right?
Brian: So great.
Damian: That was just amazing. I was like this is like a Star Wars thing.
Brian: The level of detail.
Damian: That level of detail, like just oh it's so good. I'm super geeking out and I'm very sorry everyone. I want to congratulate you guys, it was an amazing season. So, well done. I cannot wait to see what you bring in season 3. But we're not done with Wheel of Time, because before we move on, I do want to bring out one more person. So, ladies and gentlemen, let's welcome, showrunner Rafe Judkins.
Rafe Judkins joins them on stage.
Damian: And there he is. Welcome. Congratulations.
Rafe: Thank you so much. It's nice to be here.
Damian: All right, so now that we're here and you can finally talk.
Rafe: Yes.
Damian: What were you, obviously I know the answer to this, but what were you most excited to show fans in season 2?
Rafe: There's so many things, but I do think the Seanchan, it's such a iconic thing in the books that just comes in and takes the story and swipes it inside, the look of them to feel of them, everything about them feels so fresh. Even when you're reading the books, now, 30 years later. And so to bring that to tv, I felt like will feel so new even today, and that was something really exciting to see come to life.
Damian: And I know that we spoke right before the finale. You had this magical moment filming. So you want to talk about that?
Rafe: I had so many magical moments filming, Damian. They were all, every day is a little piece of magic on The Wheel of Time. But, there's actually one really special moment in Morocco, where we had a new actor playing Mat, Dónal Finn this season and he's amazing! Big, big claps for Dónal.
Damian: Yeah, so great.
Rafe: And I was standing with him. He has this moment, his big moment of the season is blowing the Horn of Valere on this huge beautiful wall overlooking, the sea in Essaouira, and I saw him while they were prepping all the VFX shots because we spent like days getting that VFX shot. And Dónal was just standing emotional off to the side and went over and I was like, "Hey, what's going on?" And he was like, "I never told you this. But I was shooting in Morocco when I got the call from you guys that I was going to play Mat. I was standing on this wall." Which just like sent chills up my whole body because I had no idea. And we had gone, I had separately gone and scouted it twice and found this wall. And so for him to have his iconic moment of the show on that wall, where he first got the call he was going to be on the show. It was just really special.
Damian: Okay. That wasn't the moment I was thinking about, that's even better!
Rafe: Well, I don't know what the moment you were thinking about was, but that was pretty magical.
Rafe: Oh Daniel and Rosamund on the beach too. Was our last day of filming. And it was sunset and Rosamund is just there with all the belief and her eyes that she is controlling fire itself. Daniel slashing through people behind her and it just, you watched the two of them and you stand on that beach and the whole crew was there together, and it was our last day, and you just see them doing their thing and you were like, they are Moiraine and Lan. They are living this. And we all got to live it with them. And so that was also a special day. Truly everyday is magic.
Damian: Oh, of course, but that beach was also super weird, right? Like you can only film on it like once a month or something?
Rafe: Yeah, the beaches we filmed on, you had to time it with the tide was only high enough. What was it, Mairgo? We had three hours once a month?
Marigo: Yeah.
Rafe: And Sanaa Hamri, the director of that episode, literally was shooting another scene with Rosamund and Daniel and she just screams, "Stop shooting! Run!" And we all ran the whole crew over to shoot in this one part with water for the three hours we had it.
Damian: Once again, you've compressed the books. And you've picked out these great iconic moments. So this was mostly [books] two and three, and you're already working on season three? Yes. What can you tell us about what's coming up? And maybe what books we might want to dip back into?
Rafe: I mean one nice thing about season three is that we really get to focus on one book this season which is book four which is one of the best books in the entire series. So I'm glad that we get to really spend a whole season doing it. And I just flew back about 36 hours through three continents and arrived here today, because I was standing in Rhuidean. And then I flew here, so that is one thing that fans will get to see for sure in season three, the Aiel Waste.
Damian: Okay, how hot is that going to be?
Rafe: It is, it's very warm.
Damian: Just wait though, eventually you're going to have to get to like mountains and then they're gonna--
Rafe: Someday we'll go to a temperate location.
Damian: The reaction to this season was so positive and so overwhelming. Are there any theories that you saw going throughout the season that kind of surprised you? Like, "oh, they're closer to what I didn't expect them to be close to"?
Rafe: I mean, one thing I love to look at is theories about the Forsaken. We really felt like the Forsaken are such an incredible part of the books and they wanted to bring them to the forefront in season two, kind of earlier than they really are forefronted in the books. And so I've seen some very serious commentary online about the Forsaken, and who or who may not be in the show, and I can-- I mean, it's not really even a confirmation -- but I can confirm that we have cast and put on set a Forsaken you have not seen in the show as of yet.
Damian: Okay, but they would know from the books?
Rafe: You would know them from the books.
Damian: And you're giving us their their backstory, correct?
Rafe: Not today.
Damian: Not today, but on the show...?
Rafe: On the show, yes.
Damian: Oh my god, I'm so excited.
Damian: So other than that, any other teasers you can give us?
Rafe: I think one of the other cool things that we get to explore, is the Aiel culture. They're these incredible warriors in The Wheel of Time world. And we get to go really meet them and see them go to where they're from. And we also get to explore, with some of our characters, the World of Dreams and Dreamwalking with these Aiel. And I think that's a really cool thing to get to do in season 3 because it is one of those unique elements in Wheel of Time that no other book series really has. And so we really explore that world in season 3.
Damian: Well, your cast, crushed it this season, it was just, they all brought their A game. But I have to give a special shout out to Kate Fleetwood. Her Liandrin is absolutely perfect. This woman, she must be so much fun to work with.
Rafe: Yeah, Kate Fleetwood is an absolute dream. She's a consummate professional, she brings something extra to every scene she's in. She's one of those actors that when you're in the writers room, you're like, "What scene can we put Kate Fleetwood in?"
Damian: Oh my god. And if you notice, if you go back and watch, she's not even in the season finale. Okay. And so, we talked about this, I was like, so you have all this shit going on in the season finale, Liandrin is nowhere to be seen, which means she's somewhere doing something and you said you promised that we will know, right?
Rafe: You will know right up top, season three, what Liandrin's been up to.
Damian: Ah! All right. Well, we're gonna leave it with that you guys. Thank you so much. Congratulations on season two. Everyone, you can go to Prime Video and watch both seasons now! Thank you all so much and congratulations.
Brian: Thank you.
Rafe: Thanks.
Q&A with Rafe Judkins transcript[]
On October 15, 2023, at the screening of the season finale episode What Was Meant to Be, Rafe Judkins had a Q&A with Sean T. Collins.
Rafe: ... of course, thank you, Sean.
Sean: I'm curious what your experience is seeing it in a theater like this. It's gotta be... different, exciting, I would imagine?
Rafe: Yeah, it's amazing whenever you can see the show on the big screen. It just makes such a huge difference, so I'm happy to sit and watch it for the 1500th time it's on the big screen.
Sean: It was fun to see like the the moments that were real crowd pleasers, when Rand let loose with his powers, especially Mat blowing the horn. And I guess that's a good question kind of to lead off with. We're going to talk a little bit about this stuff from the books that was incorporated into the season, and I know that moment was very important for people. So I guess I would ask about your approach to the whole concept of the heroes of the horn and bringing them back and making sure that that moment hit the way it needed to.
Rafe: Yeah, for us, whenever we're taking one of the kind of iconic moments from the books and figuring out how to do it, I always go back to the emotional piece of it, and the audience emotionally understanding what's going on. So for us, it's Mat blowing the horn. So how can we show that this is about who his character is? That he is a man who doesn't think he's a hero and actually is? And so, letting that be kind of a shining moment and that arc for him -- and then also including a character who had died earlier in the season, so that you could kind of understand the process as an audience member who doesn't know the books, that that's really what the Heroes of the Horn are. Of these people that we've seen before, from Ages past, that come back when you blow this Horn and fight for the Light.
Sean: Let's talk a little bit about your approach to adapting the books. Now this season adapted books two and three. So when you're incorporating that much material, and it's such a sprawling canvas obviously, it's part of the appeal of the franchise and the books. How do you go about deciding? Like, "well we need this. This maybe we can adjust"? What's the process of adaptation? Is there a first principle that you operate from?
Rafe: Yeah, the first principle for me is always staying true to the heart and the feeling of the books and and making sure that that is always conveyed in the show. But in terms of the choices that we make, when we have to choose what pieces we can do and what pieces we can't, it's really about leaning into the things that feel the most unique in this world. The fantasy space is a very crowded one on television right now. And so Wheel of Time, even though the books were written years and years ago now, it still feels incredibly fresh in the landscape today. So you'll often find us leaning into the stories that do feel the freshest, like the Seanchan, the damane story with Egwene this season, Nynaeve in the Arches. These are pieces of books two and three that really cut through and feel very fresh today. We're lucky because there's good stuff through all 15 of the books that still feels fresh today. But that's usually this stuff that we'll lean into the most.
Sean: Let's talk about the Seanchan then. You know, having to talk to you before, I'm a huge fan of how they came across. They're so alien, but without feeling like a sort of vague version of some exotic culture from our world. The American accents play a big part in that. So I guess, what was your approach to the design of them? The look, the feel, the sound, the whole Seanchan vibe.
Rafe: Yeah, our team in Prague is incredible at sort of how they create characters, how they create worlds. And every season we'll sit down and talk about the new worlds that we get to go to that year. So for this season, the Seanchan was obviously a huge piece of that. And my first sit downs with the teams were difficult because I was basically like, "Okay, so what we need is a group of people who feel entirely alien to our world, but also within the world of The Wheel of Time," and they will like, "Uuuuh..." And so we try to all of us together mind through the books and find different things that we could bring out and bring to the surface that can be interesting and give that feeling. And I think the hair and makeup team, Davina who does our hair and makeup is incredible. Sharon Gilliam, who does the costumes. They worked really closely together with Ondrej Nekvasil who does the production design. All of these teams work together to give this aesthetic and bouncing the colors off each other. Once they're clothes [???], and what feels different in the world but it'll look good in our sets in Morocco. And from the accent point of view, that was something that was in the books actually or in Robert Jordan's mind at least, was the idea that the shontend had American drawls, like a southern brawl. And so for us, we've thought about, "Okay, what if we could put that accent on the Seanchan?" That is an accent we've avoided in the show because it feels very modern. But if we do our version of it, that has sort of just like civil war era lilt to it, then it can sit in the show and still make them feel kind of alien.
Sean: This is also kind of a first principles type question, but just with the Seanchan alone, it's a perfect example, you're dealing with costumes, you're dealing with set design, you're dealing with makeup design, hair, the actual performances, the accents, the special effects involved with the damane and the sul'dam, all that kind of stuff. And that's just one part of one storyline of this whole world that you have to supervise. So when you, in your mind, have to tackle a situation that huge, how do you start thinking, "all right, I'm gonna leave is with this department, and this department, and this department," like is there like a process that you go through or do you kind of--?
Rafe: We have a lot of meetings, Sean. We do. No, I mean it really, I mean Marigo could speak to it, we probably had truly hundreds of meetings about the Seanchan starting as soon as we were in the writers room because you do need all those departments working together. And when television is at its very best, every single department is additive and is lifting the product overall. And so I think we were really able to achieve that with the Seanchan. And we have some new places we're going in season three that the team has been working very hard on this year. And so it's exciting to see those worlds getting built.
Sean: One thing that I really liked about this season and you kind of alluded to it a little bit with Egwene and Nynaeve, is that there are these almost self-contained stories. That feel almost like a short story within the larger narrative. I remember watching with my family, the episode where Nynaeve goes through the Arches and when she finally gets out, my kid turned to me and was like, "That was a good episode," and then they opening title pops up! Because it felt so like satisfying and fulfilling in and of itself. Was that something that you did on purpose? Like with that, and I'm thinking specifically of the Egwene episode where she is trained and broken.
Rafe: Yeah, every season we sort of sit down in the writer's room. And one of the things that we do at the very beginning is pick out a couple of the stories that we have to carve out the space to make a whole episode for. Eight episodes to tell the amount of story we have to tell us is an almost impossible and daunting challenge every season. And so to further make it really almost like six episodes you have to tell that story is huge. But we think it's worth it because those stories will really stand out to an audience, especially that doesn't know the books, when they're given that time and it's carved out so they can really follow that character on that journey. And so every season-- The first season was more of like the group journey that had the one big Moiraine episode, but for seasons two and three, we've really carved out two episodes a season that can really be devoted to one of the characters.
Sean: That kind of speaks to a larger issue of balance. I was thinking specifically in this finale, just watching it now I was like, "Well, you've got Rand, you have-- I mean, I could list all the characters, you all know who the characters names -- But you have all of these people and plus like other separate things like the stuff with the Whitecloaks, the stuff with the Forsaken. It's not just our heroes, in other words. How do you, like when you sit and you watch your whatever rough cut of it, like, "That's kind of off balance. This needs a little more weight. This needs a little--" Is that kind of how it works? Like you kind of snip and add and tweak?
Rafe: I think you have to look at it that way because it is so big and so complicated and you never want the audience to lose emotional track of the characters. At least, that's for me, that's the main thing I'm looking for. As I feel like audiences in television are connected when they're connected emotionally. So there are things that sometimes you have to put-- Like in this finale, there's a really important sequence from the books where Ingtar, who is the guy that was captured with Perrin and Loial, is revealed to be a darkfriend. And it's a big story in the books. It's something I love in the books. And we shot it, and it just, you couldn't emotionally connect to it with them number of other things that we're going on in the finale. So we ultimately had to pull it in the cut process because it disrupted your ability to follow our lead characters through it. Although I think, oh Holly might kill me, but that will be a deleted scene that we release eventually so you can see it. Because Gregg, who plays Ingtar, is fantastic and it's a great scene, and it's wonderful from the books, and I think it should be in the canon of the world, but it just didn't make sense in the finale.
Sean: You talked about how you need to keep the audience emotionally invested and that's the key to making those kinds of decisions. Is it ever a challenge -- and I don't mean this as an insult to anybody really -- But is it ever a challenge to keep the actors rooted in the emotions of it, given the scale of everything going on? Do they ever come to you come to you like, "I feel a little lost with all the stuff going on"? How do you find that?
Rafe: Our actors are incredible because they also -- and I think a lot of the reason that we gravitated towards the actors that are in the show is because they're drawn in by the emotion too, and they really want to follow their character through it. So we'll have sit downs with all of them and sort of say, "Do you understand what's going on this scene? With the magic dagger and a guy that was in a season with a different actor that isn't you? And then it cuts to this?" There's so many layers of complexity. And so I think my time is well-spent talking to the actors and the director is about what those layers of complexity are. So that when they step on the set, they can just feel it and all of that is there. And Natasha, who plays Lanfear, is a great example of that. She's always playing 50 levels in every scene in which we talked through what they are beforehand of like, "Oh actually, you knew him in a past life, and you tried to kill him, and you're in love with him, but also you don't want him to know that you were, but you kind of do want him to know that you were." And she's able to take -- we have incredible actors on the show, some actors that would cripple actually, like they could not function with that level of knowledge about what's going on, they just kind of need one through-line to track. But our actors are so invested in it and so good that, you know, 'Tasha can take all of that in and then just go do it, and it's perfect. And that's a big blessing to have on the show with the quality of our actors.
Sean: And it seems like with Lanfear, and I'm glad you brought her up, because one thing that seems so crucial to the season into the story in general is you do kind of have to believe that it's possible for Rand to choose these people who after all you used to be his friends and have their own -- we may not agree with what they're trying to do, but she loves him, you know. Ishamael is just tired of all the suffering and wants to end it permanently. Of course, that causes a lot of problems, but for everybody, but You know, understandable. So it seems to me that's a big part of it. She kind of passed a nail Lanfear to make Rand makes sense, almost in a way.
Rafe: Yeah, we feel like that's such an important part of watching the show and feeling the show. When you read the books, especially in these early ones actually, the Forsaken are much more kind of like big bad guy. Ishamael presents as a flaming head that just screams nightmare things at Rand. Which is very cool when you're in the books, but it isn't until the later books that you start to realize who Ishamael really is and why he wants to do the things he does. And so we thought it was important to put that up front for exactly the reason that you're talking about of, if the Shadow is going to be a hypothetical choice for our characters, then you want to see people who made that choice for reasons that you really understand. And so we've gone out of our way to every person who's shown chosen the Shadow on the show, you hopefully have some kind of emotional understanding of why they did it.
Sean: There's a character I want to talk about who is not human, who is called hopper. It was, I have to say, a tough scene to watch in a big crowd of people on a huge screen watching that poor wolf get it. Obviously people who read the books knew this was coming, but it's still tough to watch, and I was just wondering what went into the creation of that scene.
Rafe: No, I mean, one of the, the basic rules of television, they tell you when you start working is that if you kill a dog on screen, no one will ever watch the show again. And we broke that rule. But I think that what was important to us is really making you -- in the books, you love Hopper because Hopper is a character that you pay attention to, and Hopper does die at the hands of Whitecloaks. So we had the task of sort of getting you to really feel for Hopper also in the show. So that when that moment hits, that you feel like you're losing a character, not a dog. And I think that they achieved that and I think a big piece of what we chose to do with it is a lot of shows take the route of going CGI with wolves. Wolves are very hard to work with, and so you really don't want to put them with your actors. So we used Czechoslovakian wolf dogs instead. And Marcus, who plays Perrin, spent hours and hours and hours with Ka Lupinka who plays Hopper, because we wanted that relationship to be real. So he would walk her around the lot all the time, and they would spend time together on the weekends, and Marcus's relationship with Ka Lupinka was like one of the sweetest things. When she saw him again this year, she just like lept at him, she remembered him. And you feel that on the screen, like when she's looking at him, he actually feel that there is a connection between him and her. So that was the choice we made to use real animals and to make sure that Marcus the actor had a relationship with the the dog actor.
Sean: It came through, like when he gets mad, I felt that. I don't blame anybody, I don't blame you. Yeah, so the reaction to that scene leads to a larger question which is that this season was extremely well received, not just by people, by me, but like people, you know, just fans. And I wanted to ask you, were you taking this in as the season played out? Or were you just kind of like sitting back and not looking at it? And now that you know how people felt about it, how do you feel?
Rafe: I mean it's wonderful to see people love the show and to see them come to the books from the show and create this world that like I grew up loving with my mom and with my family and more people are now a part of it, is really an amazing thing to feel. But I usually... I don't know, I was on Survivor years and years ago. So like you immediately get very used to the idea of like, you just have to take everything on the internet with a grain of salt. So like positive negative, whatever it is, you just like, sort of appreciate that we're working on one of the few things that millions and millions of people around the world are watching. There's so many shows that go out right now and no one sees them, and this is one that everybody's watching, and that's really exciting. Because, you know, then you're a part of something and doing something that can be relevant. And that's an amazing thing.
Sean: Did you have favorite storylines in this season beyond what -- or were they were the ones that we just talked about? But like, I'm really curious about that too because you're a fan in addition to being the person who runs the show. Was there stuff as a Wheel of Time fan, you're like, "Yes for doing it! Yeah! Yeah!"
Rafe: I mean, there is always where you just get excited that you get to do those stories. I really responded to the Egwene story when I read the books. In this season, her storyline of being a damane, it felt so different than anything I'd read before. So to be able to bring that to life was really really special. And then there are, I think the harder ones are the ones that I personally love from the books but know that we're not going to get to dom and that actually causes me more emotional pain than the joy I get from the ones we do.
Sean: That's got to be difficult, to try and separate your feelings as a fan from your feelings as the person who's like, "I make the television show. That's got to be my responsibility first and foremost."
Rafe: Yeah, well I think Wheel of Time is very unique in terms of book series and that like people who read it all have their favorite storylines, and all of those people have different favorite storylines. I guarantee you, there are people sitting here who skipped Rand and Perrin chapters to get to Egwene and Nynaeve chapters. And there's people who skipped Egwene and Nynaeve chapters to get to Perrin and Rand chapters. And that's just the truth of this. And there are also books where you suddenly fall back in love with that character that you didn't think you liked for a while. And so our duty as the show is to not skip those chapters. You really have to pay attention to those characters and give them the highlight in the seasons that make the most sense for them to get the highlight this season. This was a really big Egwene Nynaeve season for us. Next season is a really big Rand Perrin season for us. There are always different characters who are sort of like, rising in importance, but all of those people are the core of the show.
Sean: I wanted to get back to the Forsaken for a second because you know--
Rafe: Because we always have to talk about the Forsaken.
Sean: Yes, of course. Yes. Ishamael returned for the season, and he became this really magnetic, compelling, complex character. Lanfear was introduced, and I think was like a huge hit for everybody. But right there at the end, we met another forsaken. And I was wondering if you could talk about that person a little bit? If you can.
Rafe: Yeah, I think I can say something's about Moghedien. Laia Costa who plays Moghedien and had a really big challenge to do, which is that we just had an episode that is a feature film in terms of VFX and armies and fire dragons and Rosamund Pike on a beach shredding and like -- and then, but the final scene is just a new character talking. And that is a big challenge as an actor to come in, and that scene for us was to give the promise of season three and what the Forsaken will eventually mean in the show. Because I think that you might, through this season, start to think, "I love Ishamael and Lanfear so much, there's no way I can love another Forsaken more." And Laia set out to prove that you actually can.
Sean: I mean it's it's super cool as a moment too. Because at the end of the first season, you had this sort of kicker with the Seanchan showing up and you're just like, "What is going on?" And that's great. So like, I don't know, personally, I feel a little bit of confidence. Therefore, it's like, well, they tried this once and it worked.
Rafe: So I have seen some of the Moghedien scenes from season three and this is just the beginning.
Sean: So, let's see here. So You did a presentation, a panel for comic con. And my understanding is that you announce some stuff and I was wondering if you could, for people who might have missed it. What happened? What went down?
Rafe: Yeah, I think we announced that Aiel Waste and the city of Rhuidean will be in season three. We can officially say it. I think today I'm allowed to say that there is another world that we have been working very hard to build. And that is the world of Tanchico. And it's tropical, it's so different than anything else you've ever seen on the show before. And oh, genuinely -- I don't know if I can take this -- but we we built, I will do it, we build this area where there's a bar and there's some of our characters like Nynaeve and Elayne that you love that are in there. And literally this place was just so wild and the costumes are so different. There's tropical plants hanging from the ceiling and everyone looks like they could kill anyone at any moment. And we all just hung out after set one day in that bar, because we were having such a good time there shooting. So I think Tanchico's gonna bring a real fresh energy to the show and season three. Oh! There's one more place I'm allowed to talk about too. We shot it just a couple weeks ago, which is we have built a Sea Folk ship and cast some Sea Folk. So we'll get to see the world of that, which you don't know anything about yet, but you will soon.
Sean: Appreciate that. One thing that I think, kind of a fundamental thing about this season, is that the first season was very much like, "Here's your band of companions. They're on a quest." This season, they're scattered to the four winds. Does that present its own, I mean, I think it does but like it's own unique challenges? Do you have a preference even? Would you rather have the gang back together? Or do you prefer when they're out, pursuing their own things, or like having their own?
Rafe: I think what you need is a balance of both of the things, really. One thing that we really wanted to go for this season was seeing each of the characters for at least a couple episodes completely on their own. And all of our seven leads got that this season, where you really saw them on their own, because that's in a way for TV, it's like the audience is getting a POV chapter where you feel like you're in the head of the characters. And Wheel of Time is an incredible novel series because you spend so much time in the head of the characters, but it's not like Game of Thrones where it translates perfectly easily to television. I mean those have like act breaks built into them. And so for us, these sequences where we can be alone with the character and kind of get the audience really their head are invaluable because they do the work that gets done in the books by these POV chapters where we get to actually hear what the character is thinking.
Sean: I guess we're running towards the end of our time here. You had mentioned that one of the things you prioritize is like, "Okay this is a fantasy show. There's a lot of fantasy shows. What can our fantasy show do that's different?" And I've noticed that certainly I've responded to it, to me that's the most exciting thing about The Wheel of Time as a television show, is that you think this is such well-trod territory, and you wind up going down these directions that you never would have anticipated. Things worked very very differently than they do in a lot of fantasy series. One thing I've talked about at home is that there've been a lot of fantasy series where the cast is like very even in terms of from supporting, like men or women, but like, not one when there's not a patriarchy. That's new. That's exciting. Yeah. So looking forward, do you see this as like a challenge? Are you constantly gonna have to be like, "How are we going to top what we did last season? Like how are we going to...?"
Rafe: That's the great thing about adaptinh this book series. I'm just like, "Oh my god, yeah, yeah, this is good, but wait till what happens in season three!" There are actually things that happen in the books all the way through that are so different, and no one's doing them, and we're really leaning into those. And it's very cool because -- It was funny, I clicked on my own Amazon Prime to watch Wheel of Time, because everyone should watch on their Amazon Prime as many times as they want.
Sean: It's bingable now, you can watch the whole thing from start to finish.
Rafe: Go back to season one, watch them both, just leave it on.
Sean: Take a day.
Rafe: And it said, you know it has like the three keywords that it does for all of the shows, and it said for Wheel of Time it had "strange" and "vicious" and "epic." And I was like, you know what? That is great. Those are words I would choose for the show. Because I do think it's strange and that's one of its huge things that it's got going for it. You don't expect where the story's going. It doesn't fall in these kind of trodden pathways that we're used to and getting used to in fantasy television. And it is ambitious, it does crazy stuff and we get to do crazy stuff on the show. And it is epic you can see new worlds every season, and we have an amazing budget from Amazon that we try to use to the maximum to put a lot on screen. I think that's part of the fun of this series, that I know that there are all these stories that are strange and ambitious and epic that we still have to do. And that's the excitement of it.
Sean: Well, I feel like you gave everybody a lot of stuff to look forward to in the strange, ambitious, and epic categories. Thanks so much for coming out to talk.
Rafe: Thank you guys so much.
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Season 1
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This transcript of a live event has been edited for clarity and readability. Filler words (such as "uh", "like", "you know", etc.) have been removed.